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Re: Love and (Gay) Marriage
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DelvianOracle
Uh oh, we went there....
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Feb 18 04 6:45 PM
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My Recent Posts
Ok, another preface before I speak. At times in my post, it is going to seem as though I'm attacking people, rather than ideas. I'm not. Everyone here is amazing, and so many of you, even those who differ from me on this topic, are an inspiration to me elsewhere on this board. We are all good people
Please therefore read my use of the word "you" in parts of this article in context. Because some of you raised specific issues, I use "you" as a way to dialogue back to that. Nothing is meant as a personal attack, simply as a harsh critique of a social institution I see contributing to oppression. I'm sorry, I just can't let that go.
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd, GO!
I was really hoping this discussion wouldn't take this turn, but I suppose it's inevitable. The Catholic Church. Truly a bastion of good will to all and social policies and practices that exemplify the Christian ethics of love your neighbor and your enemy, right? Please note the intense sarcasm. Don't make me point to all the awful human rights violations the Catholic Church, as a whole, has either perpetrated, condoned, or been complicit in by ignoring the presence of said rights violations. Do the Crusades, the witch trials and burnings, the rape and destruction of culture done to native peoples, ignoring the Holocaust, etc. really fade so readily from our collective consciousness? How about recent statements from the Vatican to AIDS-ridden countries about how the use of condoms doesn't totally prevent the spread of the disease, so people should just stop using them? I weep for Catholics in this day and age; you certainly have an emmense shadow side to your religion to own up to, and if your refuse to see it, I refuse to respect your position.
Having said that, I'd like to echo the position of Bard. I couldn't care less whether your own PERSONAL politics are influenced by your religious background, because all of us are influenced by our life situations. But when your religion is so clearly biased against rights for certain groups, I'm sorry, but you have NO PLACE in public policy. NONE. Period. End of story. Gay people exist in society. Gay people are taxpaying, full citizens of the United States, just as were African Americans, Jews, Asian Americans, Native Americans, all of whom have been the subject of intense human rights violations. For any full citizen to be denied the rights of other full citizens is WRONG. Not in your "moral" sense of the word, but in a completely secular way. We live in a so-called democracy where everyone has an equal say, and everyone should have equal rights. Last I checked, Christianity, despite being very popular in the States, was not the official religion of this country, and a separation, at least on paper, did exist between Church and State. Legislation that has it's roots in Judeo-Christian "morality", that is man-made (whether you believe it to be "God-inspired" or not!) interpretations of "right" and "wrong" should at the least be VERY critically viewed and analyzed, and at the most wholly rejected when it CLEARLY favors rights for some and not for others. Last I checked, you were free to express your religious views UP TO the point when you deny rights to others. Whether you believe that homosexuality is a sin and deserving of Hell or not makes less difference in social policy than a teardrop makes in the ocean. Marriage does not belong to you (Christians, Catholics), it did not originate with you, and I'll be d@mned if I'll let your beliefs dictate what the institution of marriage means to a world I live in, a world full of diversity and changing (much needed!) definitions of family.
Now that I've said that, I'd also like to point something out, not just to everyone here, but specifically to those who identify as Catholic. While it may be the majority position of your branch of Christianity that marriage is between a man and woman, or that homosexual practice is sin, there are PLENTY of churches and sects within Catholicism that embrace gay people (and their actions!) fully and lovingly, and that are advocating right now, and have been in the past, for full equality, even marriage for gays. I think it's a huge mistake to say that "all Catholics" believe anything, just like it would be a huge mistake to say all Lutherans, all Baptists, all Buddhists, etc. believe in the same thing.
I'm terribly sorry if this post has hurt people's feelings or angered them, but I live every day in a country under the shadow of a belief structure that angers and oppresses me, so get over it! Yes, I believe in celebrating diversity and choice, but if your choice includes beliefs that clearly oppress others, I don't think I should be forced to celebrate you or your views.
Social policy is in the secular realm of data, analysis, and concrete answers. Religion tackles the issues that may not have answers, the questions of faith. Because there are so many "right" answers in religious matters, almost every religion claims they have the capital T truth, there should be NO WAY that we accept or write into social policy any one answer. And that's what we have now, one view or one answer on what marriage is. I have yet to see one convincing religious or non-religious argument for why 2 men or 2 women shouldn't be able to marry. Sorry, but religious positions fail to hold water in the arena of social policy for any intelligent person who wishes to protect, and not deny, fundamental human rights.
Nick
P.S. After writing this and looking back over Bard's posts, I would like to say that I'm not sure I can agree with his mentioning of the molestation scandals in the Catholic Church. In truth, this is an issue that many churches are currently struggling with, the Catholics just seem to be getting the brunt of the media attention. However, I would add that little hypocrisy to my earlier list of rights violations that should make us suspect of the "rightness", especially moral rightness, of any position that comes out of the Catholic Church. To alter your quote slightly, PhoenixEffect, "just because every Catholic supports it does not make it right, either."
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