FE, if you are responding to me then you have missed my point entirely. The problem is what you define as flaws. You assume that Jean's flaws are her dark periods (similarly with some of what you say about Scott) when it is quite the opposite. Those personal flaws are what made them great and allowed them to last when Marvel had to move into the new era outsider of the Boy Scout '60s and living with a diverse cast with powerhouse women. What it seems that you are avoiding in discussions, which I love too or I wouldn't come back to be repeatedly rebuffed, is that their true flaws that we all kinda need to accept to really like them is to acknowledge the....super keener origin they had. While they have grown, this is still a core part of their nature. Jean's DP moments make her cool and edgy, but focusing on that is what created the overtly lame Anti-Sue movement with ultra tragic good girls going bad or bad girls going good. In Jean's case, the over use of the DP story, which leads to her death. This where my Emma comment comes in. The Anti-Sue was concocted to hide the true keener flaws and make things seem more interesting with lazy writing.

Defending and empahsizing her 'negative points', simply reiterates the idea that her basic nature as a realistic good girl (though no longer THE pre-fem. good girl archetype, which is dead really) makes her unworkable. The notion makes it that she's too powerful, too uber popular, too pretty etc. to fit into a story and eventually written out unless she is viewed more on the darker side. There seems to be that "she's cool too" defensive idea (by fans and writers) so moments when she slips or goes DP are hyped bc that is what the masses will love automatically. Those are fun and easy moments, but esp. when discussing this character's true flaws they are gimmicks. This is why I've come to hate the DP storyline. Rather than making a good story and a true Phoenix story with her taking a role as a true heroine in her own name, she is automatically looked down upon as Mary Sue so then we need to point out that she could kill someone, has killed and will do uber naughty villianous things. Must keep her cool! Now that they've been forced to acknowledge that Jean is Phoenix and Phoenix is a raw force of good and harmony, she is now longer considered cool enough to write. She won't cheat like Emma, lie like Emma, turn on her teammates and kill like Emma or struggle as much as Emma...no she'll save the day and so she must be unworkable and lame. But then, this goes to your point, what do you really like about her? Do you like all of Jean or the gimmick? Those points that make you squimish are the real flaws.

This is why I liked Evo Jean. She had every bad to worst demographic trait that created the Anti-Jean fans and makes Jean fans blush: brainer, THE pretty one, the mature one, the most powerful one, the actual popular one, dating the school star and a star athlete herself, met the love of her life by 15, dating the head of the super team etc. Even her one actual DP moment in the show was actually just her powers going and making her more powerful. Yet, unlike her other versions, she didn't shy away from what she was and simply accepted herself. She was a real girl at the end of the day. She wasn't written with the need to prove she was hardcore or defensively make her as fun and as troubled as say Rogue or the other naughty girls. She was what she was. Could she mentally throwdown with the big boys? Sure and frequently! She could get as nasty as she wanted, but she was still the good girl ppl loved for simply being herself. And she wasn't such a Mary Sue that she didn't recognize her goody-goody nature as an actual alienating factor. She was just real and fun.

This why I generally hate Scott. His evolution from boy scout to uber macho man isn't grounded in his core identity but in artificially making him fun and interesting. Keeping up with the Logans. Give him an affair, make him brood, cheat, crazier macho military etc. He gets lamer and lamer. There is rarely a complex portrayal of the boy within the man and how the two meet. Things are just dismissed as that discussion isn't cool.

You may be right about the other boards, but I'm speaking about the actual good girl/bad girl issue. The other boards probably are as defensive for their title characters real flaws than this issues however they aren't subjected to this issue as many of them were made after the fem. movement and their core personas aren't tarnished by being Mary Sue and possibly the uber good girl/best friend/girlfriend archetype.

I like Jean, but if we are going to have her back then we need to let her be a true heroine and not Emma-lite.

WAXM Rogue was meh at best and I'm not sure why she'd be a fav. She was pretty much a pale imitation of Evo. Rogue. Just as emo with none of the storyline development, maturity, sophistication or impact. She even looked a bit like her except Rogue grew to be hotter while WAXM Rogue still looks lame. Rogue didn't need to be a buxom eye candy bombshell for guys to worship or fly and punch things (i.e. Ms. Marvel) to be cool and Evo Rogue showed that. Evo Rogue was a powerhouse and showed what all Rogue fans love her real potential. Like the rest of X-men in WAXM (except maybe Kitty and Emma - though is Emma's first real appearance as an X-men so it is subjective), she is childish and sloppily made. It is shocking that anyone would hate Evolution. TAS was ok though kinda tacky and highly comic based with no originality, but if we really want a guide as to how to tell the X-men then Evo is how we do it. It captured and built their core personas without the over wrought BS.

They show have just made another season of Evo rather than WAXM.

Last Edited By: fierypassion Dec 6 09 12:31 PM. Edited 1 times.