This is the chat that occured Friday 24th. Everything below is what occured within chat. Everything before has been deleted.
Within the Void:: here here *slams gavel* this meeting has been called to order
#DelvianOracle:: LOL
#Perfect Pitch:: sweet
#Perfect Pitch:: and so it begins
domino21710:: Anyone who has a guns assumes responsibility
#Perfect Pitch:: Take it away void
Duddy9:: But he ruined the mans shot!
domino21710:: Present and accounted for!
Within the Void:: The first thing on the agenda is JGMB rules
#DelvianOracle:: yeah, we could be political all night
domino21710:: okay...focus, focus...
Within the Void:: I just want to say while the official meeting is in order the rules need to be obeyed\
#DelvianOracle:: hahahaha
#Perfect Pitch:: agreed
#DelvianOracle:: I mean, definitely
Duddy9:: agreed
domino21710:: sure
domino21710:: I mean, yea
Within the Void:: They are located at the top of each board for your convenience
#DelvianOracle:: are we in danger of breaking rules in a chat?
#Caveman:: agreed. if i do leave, which i might, don't mean it for anything excepting really having to leave. good luck void and thanks for organizing this.
Within the Void:: The main rule that I mean is respect, just everyone please respect that not everyone sees the same thing
#Perfect Pitch:: void may I have the floor?
Within the Void:: no you may not
#Perfect Pitch:: fine
Within the Void:: j/king
#Perfect Pitch:: ok
#DelvianOracle:: well, I say we start off by agreeing not to take everything so personally... who would expect that you leaving was for any reason other than having to go?
#Caveman left
Duddy9:: lol
#DelvianOracle:: oh no, he left because he hates me!
Within the Void:: guys lets be serious
Within the Void:: Birr?
#Perfect Pitch:: Ok - I do think now that there are multiple administrators...a lot of anxiety is relieved
#DelvianOracle:: oh alright
SantoPejo joined
#DelvianOracle:: PEJO!
#Perfect Pitch:: but as far as the rules go
#DelvianOracle:: my loe!
Duddy9:: Hello Santo
domino21710:: okay.
#DelvianOracle:: or love
SantoPejo:: hello everyone
SantoPejo:: LOL
#DelvianOracle:: you know
domino21710:: Hi Santo!
SantoPejo:: Loe, love...its all the same
#Perfect Pitch:: I would like to specify flaming and maybe come up with a new succient definition as a group
#Perfect Pitch:: you know...and can we quantify that
Within the Void:: Is everyone aware of what is considered flaming?
domino21710:: succinct?
#DelvianOracle:: vaguely
Duddy9:: yes
domino21710:: I need clarification, please
#Perfect Pitch:: For example, what Nate was doing earlier I do not believe is flamming...but others did
#Perfect Pitch:: there is clearly a difference in how we understand what is and is not flamming
#DelvianOracle:: well, I wanna clarify that falaming is anything i don't agree with
SantoPejo:: lol
Within the Void:: hem.passagen.se/hggblom2/...index.html
domino21710:: then...what is a happy medium we can reach?
#DelvianOracle:: wow, I'm not winning points for spelling tonight
#DelvianOracle:: and obviously kidding
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domino21710:: DO--lol
domino21710:: welcome back
#Perfect Pitch:: sorry...had to refresh for pop-ups
Within the Void:: Any thoughts on how we can clarify what flaming is?
#Perfect Pitch:: void could you post the link again
Within the Void:: hem.passagen.se/hggblom2/...index.html
Duddy9:: Could we simply add the "j/k" symbol whenever someone is joking.
#Caveman joined
SantoPejo:: inflammatory remarks directed at a specific individual or group?
JoshuaChayne joined
domino21710:: well...my popup blocker is barring my ability to see your definition..
#DelvianOracle:: hmmmm, but that defeats the fun
domino21710:: welcome in Joshua!
JoshuaChayne:: hello!
#DelvianOracle:: Josh, yay!
SantoPejo:: hey, Josh
#DelvianOracle:: we needed a Thacker
Duddy9:: Hi Josh
#Caveman:: hi josh
Within the Void:: Its towards the bottom of the page under disruptive behavior I believe
Within the Void:: that would be appropriate duddy
domino21710:: But, if we recall...the whole Dayspring incident wasn't borne of joking, it was a question he had...
#DelvianOracle:: oh, for sure
#DelvianOracle:: but was the question a flame?
Within the Void:: Yes, which is why the meeting has been requested.
domino21710:: What is considered inflammatory would be important..
SantoPejo:: I dont think asking your age is inflammatory
Within the Void:: Delvian what do you consider a flame
#DelvianOracle:: well, generally something that seems offensive and done to offend
#DelvianOracle:: but see? too vague
#DelvianOracle:: "offensive" for who? me?
Within the Void:: I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot but we need some feedback
Within the Void:: to you and your character
#Perfect Pitch:: yes - how do we make those with thick skin and those with thinner skin all happy
#DelvianOracle:: yeah, but I'd really love if we could get something concrete, because intent is so hard to establish
domino21710:: His question on how old was the other poster was followed by "it takes a bit of age to be able to analyze it on that level"....
Within the Void:: So do we want to refrain from asking personal questions on the board or is there some other option
domino21710:: I think that's where trouble started..
Within the Void:: so questioning ones intelligence should not be done?
#Perfect Pitch:: Ok - I would agree to that...age is pretty personal. I think directly asking someone's age is inappropriate
domino21710:: Does that sound like a good question to you Void?
#Perfect Pitch:: no - questioning intelligence is essential
#Perfect Pitch:: but questioning age is personal
domino21710:: In the correct way...
Duddy9:: He was being rather condescending
#DelvianOracle:: according to who, though?
#DelvianOracle:: public opinion?
Within the Void:: ok
JoshuaChayne:: I wish we could structure things without being too rule oriented.
Within the Void:: so we need to define who the material is offensive to
domino21710:: Well, if you are asking someone who has written corporate policy before (and you are)....the question about age wasn't the problem..
JoshuaChayne:: As long as people say their opinions without personally attacking another person, things should be fine right?
SantoPejo:: you'd think so
#DelvianOracle:: you'd think so
domino21710:: it was his assumption after the question that was unnecessary and should have been stipulated with an IMO.
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
SantoPejo:: lol @ Nick
#Perfect Pitch:: I mean....Void....certainly people say things (myself included) that are inferior. This should not be reinforced just to make someone feel "good" about their intellect
Within the Void:: Somewhat like offensive material being shown to the public
#DelvianOracle:: well, what burden do we ask of the speaker and what of the listener?
domino21710:: I think it's important to clarify opinion and fact.
#DelvianOracle:: it can't all be one person's responsibility, can it?
Duddy9:: To be open to others views
domino21710:: or rather...opinion versus fact.
Within the Void:: Responsiblity should be shared
#DelvianOracle:: I think so too
#DelvianOracle:: communication works both ways
Within the Void::
domino21710:: Taking the specific example of Dayspring, I would view his sentiment as appropriate had it been phrased as " I THINK it takes a bit of age to be able to analyze.....what do you think?"
#Perfect Pitch:: IMO flamming is often avoidable by simply reiterating someone's viewpoint with empathy....Nick, will you help me demonstrate?
#DelvianOracle:: sure
domino21710:: oooo...demonstration!
#DelvianOracle:: <assumes Vanna pose>
Within the Void:: If someone post something that they say is not meant to offend someone else should the "listner" take that at face value
Duddy9:: no
#DelvianOracle:: "one must have a BA to understand Grant Morrion's work"
Within the Void:: I have a BS
domino21710:: not if posed as an opinion seeking an opinion of another...
Within the Void::
domino21710:: BTW--you two are cracking me up.
#DelvianOracle:: we try hard ;-)
#Perfect Pitch:: "That's interesting. So what I'm hearing is that you believe Morrison's work is not as enjoyable for those without an education?"
domino21710:: To give credit to the whole situation, Dayspring did say he didn't mean any insult to Slick.
Within the Void:: lets not descend into this now unless it pertains to the discussion, focus
#DelvianOracle:: "Yes, completely. I think that there are so many elements that necessitate a background in academia that you need further education to get the most from his work
Duddy9:: That doesn't mean insult isn't caused
domino21710:: However, it's like saying..."Don't be mad, but you're not mature enough to get it"
#DelvianOracle:: or equivalent life experience"
#Perfect Pitch:: "I understand, but how do you account for life experience?"
#Perfect Pitch:: darn
#DelvianOracle:: uh oh
#DelvianOracle:: darn?
Within the Void:: back on topic
Within the Void:: How do you think Meghan and John can improve this
#DelvianOracle:: I think people should ask more clarifying questions before posting angry
domino21710:: that could help...
#DelvianOracle:: because often a mistake is being made in interpretation
JoshuaChayne:: I agree, thats a good suggestion.
domino21710:: very true.
Within the Void::
Duddy9:: I'm sorry guys. I have to go, I'm falling asleep at the computer.
#DelvianOracle:: and once we factor that out, we can get at a real issue... if one exists
domino21710:: Good night Duddy..
Duddy9:: Goodbye
#DelvianOracle:: g'night
Duddy9 left
Within the Void:: I'm just putting the smilee faces next to suggestions
#Perfect Pitch:: "I understand that you highly respect Morrison. What about his run bothered you?"
#Perfect Pitch:: and scene
#Perfect Pitch:: hahaha
#DelvianOracle:: LOL
domino21710:: ha!
domino21710::
SantoPejo:: So...I'm lost
#DelvianOracle:: yeah, we used to do this more often here on the Jean board... disagree vehemently
#DelvianOracle:: now it seems so taboo
domino21710:: But, if I may...I think assumption should be made clearly as that of an opinion...I haven't heard anyone's thoughts on that...
#DelvianOracle:: all I can say to account for it is that relationships have been lost
#Caveman:: can i jump in here. to the folk who have been here awhile, i need to ask a question. Has there been a "crisis" like this, if there is one, on this board before, to require such scrutiny.
domino21710:: Good question.
#DelvianOracle:: yes
#DelvianOracle:: multiple times that I recall
Within the Void:: *nods*
#DelvianOracle:: this one just got huge
#Caveman:: and how were they resolved?
SantoPejo:: drama ensues when...oh, nevermind.
JoshuaChayne:: oh yes we have had many huge disagreements and even flame wars of sorts.
#Perfect Pitch:: well, if one person holds too much power...trouble is always bound to repeat
domino21710:: But how did the situations end up?
#DelvianOracle:: I think the key to past conflict was interpersonal respect
JoshuaChayne:: usually either some people are banned or others leave.
Within the Void:: I don't think I was around for many of them perhaps Josh can answer how they were resolved
Within the Void:: foresight
JoshuaChayne:: they either feel they must leave out of aggrivation or are encouraged to leave by others.
#DelvianOracle:: "old memebers" have, in the past, had a real friendship going on
domino21710:: So, the huge fights usually ended in what precisely did happen with Nadav?
#DelvianOracle:: usually, but there was a pervasive feeling that most people agreed
#DelvianOracle:: not so this time
#Perfect Pitch:: I have to say...something the board is good at is protecting whistle blowers....I've seen that respect multiple times
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#slickboy444:: Hello everybody!
#DelvianOracle:: hey
domino21710:: hey slick
#Perfect Pitch:: hi
#slickboy444:: THis has got to be the most people I've ever seen the chat room at once. lol
#Caveman:: hello back
Within the Void:: I'm not familiar with the term "whistle blowers"
domino21710:: Yeah, can you expound on that Pitch?
#Perfect Pitch:: Sure
#Perfect Pitch:: When one see's an abuse of power, he/she informs the community
#Perfect Pitch:: *sees
#Perfect Pitch:: that's whistleblowing
#slickboy444:: Hey, is anybody going to be at the New York Comic Con this weekend?
Within the Void:: thanks
#Perfect Pitch:: and normally...people are thrown in jail for it in the US
#slickboy444:: Yeah, in a nutshell, that's what it is.
#Perfect Pitch:: this board doesn't try to silence a whistleblowerm, which is def. positive
domino21710:: thank you.
#Perfect Pitch:: for example, even those disagreeing with me starting the nadav thread....they didn't tell me to leave or shut up
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#DelvianOracle:: and I think this is an important idea
#Perfect Pitch:: certainly critisim was there...and that's appropriate
domino21710:: welcome back...I think a response (not specifically to you Pitch) saying why you disagree with someone is perfectly acceptable...
#DelvianOracle:: people seeking change are trying to build a better board
#DelvianOracle:: not trying to "cause trouble"
#Caveman:: sometimes I have noticed, that all of us, despite our "love of Jean", plain plum just rub each other the wrong way, and each of us at one time has gotten a "hate post?" how should this be handled.
#Perfect Pitch:: yes nick, exactly
#slickboy444:: Well it sure felt personal for me.
Within the Void:: Caveman that was the next topic you beat me
domino21710:: great minds...
JoshuaChayne:: people in power have to be questioned and you would think they would expect it.
#Perfect Pitch:: agreed josh
#DelvianOracle:: zing
#slickboy444:: Definitely.
domino21710:: Agreed.
Within the Void:: Any ideas on how the "flame" should be handled
#DelvianOracle:: well, I'd suggest taking time before responding
Within the Void::
#Caveman left
#slickboy444:: Well I'm all for free speech, so I say we take the "freedom to speak" but "responsibility of freedom" road.
#Perfect Pitch:: can moderators close a thread for all but the people arguing?
JoshuaChayne:: unless things get too out of hand, often times in these disagreements people work through the problems themselves.
domino21710:: Someone had brought up the idea before of allowing the posters invovled a chance to rectify the sitation before notifying admin.
#Perfect Pitch:: nevermind...I don't know where I was going with that
#slickboy444:: I belong to other forums were there's cursing, insults, and playful exchanges and nobody takes it overtly seriously.
JoshuaChayne:: sometimes other members can try to mediate or diffuse the situation
domino21710:: I think that's when the flaming can happen too, gosh this is a tough call
#Perfect Pitch:: yes josh, but often they pick sides and cause nothing but ongoing crazy anger
JoshuaChayne:: yeah that sometimes happens too
#slickboy444:: Yeah, as much as we love Jean, there are factions.
#DelvianOracle:: well, there always will be
#DelvianOracle:: human beings group together by likes and dislikes
#slickboy444:: So naturally, you have to expect there to be people flaming one another.
JoshuaChayne:: I remember when visible cliques of sorts started on the jean board. lol
#DelvianOracle:: well, not so much
#DelvianOracle:: the expected flame
#DelvianOracle:: I expect that adults can handle confrontation without resorting to flames
domino21710:: Factions however, shouldn't prevent people from posting to each other, even in disagreeance with a modicum of respect and manners.
#DelvianOracle:: but see? problem! "adults"
Within the Void:: The cussing isn't "allowed" because of the minors issue though it happens responsibly #$@#$%
#slickboy444:: But that's part of what we're here for.
JoshuaChayne:: in the past we have had young people like between 11 and 13 on the board
#Perfect Pitch:: ya...flamming has to occur...and, come on, flamming gets the heart racing and the blood pumping...it's healthy to some extent
#slickboy444:: I don't know. A lot of the 11 and 13 year olds I've met still curse like sailors.
#DelvianOracle:: I think an outright flame is a failure to communicate
domino21710:: Sure, I think a good dose of banter does the body good (and the brain)...
JoshuaChayne:: of course there will be passionate disagreements and sometimes condescending jabs at each other.
#Perfect Pitch:: yes, but why are we raising 11 and 13 year olds to not expect cursing in this world?
#slickboy444:: No, it's an emotional reaction.
#DelvianOracle:: which is a failure to communicate
#slickboy444:: When people don't stop and think, they react harshly.
#DelvianOracle:: my point exactly
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
#Caveman joined
JoshuaChayne:: But we don't have to say things like I hope you die and things of that sort.
domino21710:: welcome back.
#Perfect Pitch:: OMG - slick I have a question for you
#slickboy444:: What is it Perfect?
domino21710:: uh-oh
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
#DelvianOracle:: he hasn't had enough to drink to get mean
#DelvianOracle:: LOL
#Perfect Pitch:: If you were to pretend to be Nate....how would you have phrased his question about Morrison's work?
#DelvianOracle:: (not that he would)
domino21710:: That shiraz can pack a whollup.
#Perfect Pitch:: literally type the question
Within the Void:: Its not a matter of why the young ones are not cussing but having respect for the parents who don't want their child hearing that
#slickboy444:: What questions was that?
SantoPejo:: I have. lol
domino21710:: THE question...that started the whole bruhahaha
#slickboy444:: Kids cuss. Kids cuss A LOT. This I know.
domino21710:: No...the question Nate asked you in the Bashing Morisson thread.
#slickboy444:: Well I would have asked it in the form of, "Why do you think this way? Why do you think Morrison was such a hack?"
JoshuaChayne:: It seems like the language filter may have already been taken off.
#slickboy444:: Not, "I don't think you see what Morrison was trying to do."
#slickboy444:: And I took that as a personal attack on my intelligence.
#Perfect Pitch:: OK
#Perfect Pitch:: that's fair
Within the Void:: what should be done about handling flames
#Perfect Pitch:: but do you see how "Why do you think Morrison was such a hack" is equally unfair
#Perfect Pitch:: ???
#slickboy444:: And if he was standing right in front of me physically, I probably would have reacted with a 'screw yo.'
#slickboy444:: That's my opinion.
Within the Void:: unacceptable
domino21710:: Which backs up my earlier statement
Within the Void:: Respect others please even if they are not present
#slickboy444:: You're right, that's definitely a given.
Within the Void:: Constructive thoughts
#slickboy444:: But we're only human. Don't forget that.
#Perfect Pitch:: so really, we need you, slick, to tell us (as your community) in that instance what was appropriate
#Perfect Pitch:: but we also must strive to be fair in the discourse
#Perfect Pitch:: i know we're only human
#DelvianOracle:: but humanity doesn't mean "assume overly emotional repsonse at outset"
domino21710:: We're only human is a cop out excuse....is there anyone posting who isn't human?
#DelvianOracle:: there has to be conversational rights and responsibilities
#slickboy444:: But it also means that you can't expect the best from humans all the time.
#Perfect Pitch:: sure
#slickboy444:: I curse sometimes and I'm sure a lot of you curse too.
#DelvianOracle:: a lot
#slickboy444:: it's a matter of context.
#Perfect Pitch:: very much
#DelvianOracle:: but not in front of 11 year olds
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
#slickboy444:: Obvously none of you have met some of my cousins. lol
#Perfect Pitch:: well, again, I think I just disagree with that about 11 year olds...I think children using curse words is fine
#slickboy444:: But that's just me.
#Perfect Pitch:: it's part of language...and even words we dislike have meaning
#slickboy444:: Yeah, kids are going to express themselves. No way around it.
#Perfect Pitch:: but that's not important
domino21710:: I think if we want to add an adult only section, then we can start using selective language.
#slickboy444:: It's a matter of how it's constructed.
Within the Void::
#slickboy444:: Yeah, i know I've written fics with adult material that I want to post, but am afraid of censors.
JoshuaChayne:: right now the filters aren't on, in the shades of grey forum.
JoshuaChayne:: I think they may be on in the astral plane though.
#Perfect Pitch:: Well, void, I would suggest moving to the next agenda item
domino21710:: I'm a liberal and I don't care for censorship, but I think some fics need to have warnings on them if necessary...
#slickboy444:: And I put fair warnings on all my fics.
JoshuaChayne:: language doesn't offend me at all
domino21710:: and cursing should be avoided in the general discussion threads.
#slickboy444:: Including the NC-17 fics I've written.
JoshuaChayne:: people just shouldn't say things like @#%$ you, bitch. lol
Within the Void:: ok
#Perfect Pitch:: could you post what it is???
Within the Void:: moving on, I'll let Meghan and John know about the language issue/nonissue.
#slickboy444:: Yeah, we don't need to create more enemies.
domino21710:: Although almost everyone I know curses, sometimes, really, it just isn't necessary and really diminishes the purposes of the forum.
#Perfect Pitch:: thanks void!
Within the Void:: Next lets talk about Moderators
#Perfect Pitch:: I think some major imporvement has already occured here
#Perfect Pitch:: and I must say, I am happy about the multiple mods
#slickboy444:: Hey, whatever works.
#Perfect Pitch:: john and meghan have demonstrate impartial, competent and rationale decision making to me
JoshuaChayne:: we have always had multiple moderators
#DelvianOracle:: true
#DelvianOracle:: but visible?
Within the Void:: Meghan and I chatted and electing moderators would not be fair as people could just elect their faction into office. Voter turn out at the boards is very low
JoshuaChayne:: john and meghan are administrators now
#Perfect Pitch:: well, yes, but not all operated with the same authoritty
#DelvianOracle:: sorry, was away preparing the hookah
JoshuaChayne:: I don't think we have had multiple administrators before
#slickboy444:: Well it's a big forum.
#DelvianOracle:: exactly
#DelvianOracle:: and bigger all the time
#slickboy444:: It's got to be one of the biggest comic forums I know of.
#Perfect Pitch:: as far as the actual practice of moderaiton goes...is there anything that needs to change???
#slickboy444:: Shows how many people love Jean. That or they just love the artwork.
#slickboy444:: Not that I can think of Perfect.
#DelvianOracle:: I think Jean has an amazing following
#Perfect Pitch:: At this time, I think moderation is going rather well
#slickboy444:: Yeah, I haven't seen any problems.
Within the Void:: I want to know how anyone can be sure things are actually running as smooth and working properly
#Perfect Pitch:: I do have some things to say on punishments...but that is a later topic
#slickboy444:: Well, I have to go now, but before I leave, there's something I've always wanted to do...
#slickboy444:: SNOOCH TO THE NOOCH! MALL RATS RULE! STAN LEE IS GOD!
Within the Void:: Meghan and John have not run across any heated debates that might have caused controversy yet
#slickboy444:: Sorry, but I just had to do it. lol
#slickboy444 left
#DelvianOracle:: wow, awesome
domino21710:: !!!
#Perfect Pitch:: but, they have moderated heated debates before....and have demonstrated impartiality
#Perfect Pitch:: *impartial behavior
#DelvianOracle:: I don't think the key is ever not having an opinion on the matter of controversy
#DelvianOracle:: the key is not letting it control your moderation
#Perfect Pitch:: yep
Within the Void:: I just wanted to make sure there were reasons and not just "Nadavs gone" so everything is peachy
#DelvianOracle:: we all struggle with this daily
domino21710:: I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise, I think our new administrator's will fare well.
new msgt joined
#DelvianOracle:: Mike
#DelvianOracle:: :-D
domino21710:: Hey msgt.
Within the Void:: So everyone is ok with the moderation and how many mods we have
#Perfect Pitch:: in fact, if you as a moderator have an opinion at all....you should recuse yourself from moderating the debate
new msgt:: Howdy
#Caveman:: hello msgt
#Perfect Pitch:: I am
domino21710:: I'm sorry, I stepped away from the computer. How many mods do we have?
#Perfect Pitch:: I am void
#DelvianOracle:: so far, so good
Within the Void:: I'm not a moderator
new msgt:: I know I've missed al ot of the conversation
domino21710:: Or is administrator and moderator the same thing..
#DelvianOracle:: well, mods are in flux if John and Meg are admins now
domino21710:: pardon me for my ignorance..
JoshuaChayne:: its not really the same thing
#Perfect Pitch:: one day at a time void....VOID 2010!!!
new msgt:: but I feel too much moderation can be a bad things sometimes
new msgt:: usually situations get heated but they calm down eventualy
JoshuaChayne:: admins give mods their status. admins can delete the whole board if they want, mods can't.
new msgt:: that or board members help diffuse situations
new msgt:: i think the board is very self correcting
domino21710:: I see, thank you for explaining..
#DelvianOracle:: usually
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
#Perfect Pitch:: usualy
#Caveman:: haven't been around long enough to make an opinion, but have nothing but positive things to say about them especially by their tone of message, very welcoming
#Perfect Pitch:: usually
#Caveman:: but can a board become a lynch mob?
#Perfect Pitch:: I think, Void, that we could move on to the next topic if the community is ready?
Within the Void:: ok if
new msgt:: I do think mods can make situations worse depending on how they approach situations
Within the Void:: lol everyones just reading my mind tonight
#DelvianOracle:: as can all "enforcers"
new msgt:: agreed
domino21710:: Msgt...I think you've hit the nail on the head for almost any altercation.
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
new msgt:: joshuachayne, used to be a mod
new msgt:: back when sequoia ran the board
#DelvianOracle:: did he? ;-)
#Perfect Pitch:: josh? what happened???
Within the Void:: Next are there any other topics that anyone feels need to be discussed
#Perfect Pitch:: punishments
Within the Void:: Ok
new msgt:: before she left josh requested to not be a mod anymore
JoshuaChayne:: sequoia did not like how I handeled a situation and then I decided not to be a mod anymore. hehe
new msgt:: after a big fight
#Perfect Pitch:: I think banning should be a commuity decision...not a sole moderator decision
#DelvianOracle:: uh oh
new msgt:: yeah basically she didn't want him modding anymore lol
Within the Void::
new msgt:: I don't even like the idea of banning. esp. when it's long time members
#DelvianOracle:: I think there needs to be a check, for sure
new msgt:: or even original members
#DelvianOracle:: checks and balances
domino21710:: yikes...that's a call I'm not sure I would like to make at all..
new msgt:: and it shouldn't be done so lightly that it has been in the past
Within the Void:: oh for those just stepping in the smilees are for suggestions. Meghan will be reading this after we are done hear
Within the Void:: here
new msgt:: Meghan will be reading what?
#DelvianOracle:: a transcript
#Perfect Pitch:: there could be a committee on banning that is not elected, just randomly selected from those with greater than 1000 posts
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
new msgt:: that
JoshuaChayne:: I think if a ban has to be done (after someone steps way over the line) there should be some second chances for them to return later if they behave
new msgt:: s good.
new msgt:: at least we know Meghan is rational.
new msgt:: that is a plus for the board.
Within the Void:: The meeting
domino21710:: I think suspension is a much better alternative to banning.
#DelvianOracle:: me too
Within the Void:: She could not be here today, so I will be posting the meeting later tonight
JoshuaChayne:: I like that idea too.
new msgt:: banning is extreme and former admins seem to be ban happy
new msgt:: save for johnH
#Perfect Pitch:: suspensions are fine....banning is not like the death penalty though
new msgt:: who would tell you that he was more "liberal" admin
Within the Void:: I'll edit out things that occur before and after
#DelvianOracle:: indeed not
new msgt:: he didn't try to control people as much as later admins
#DelvianOracle:: some people bounce back from it like veritable phoenixes
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
domino21710:: It's temporary, it's like being grounded..without of course, having to stick to your room..
new msgt:: See i think what we have is a community
JoshuaChayne:: thomas and justin are the mains ones that were banned and they were original members.
#DelvianOracle:: really?
new msgt:: i know it feels that way for us that have been here for years and years
#Perfect Pitch:: well void, what can we do as a community about having more voices involved in the suspension/banning process????
new msgt:: so when someone comes in and is all "I own the place, this is my rules, if you don't like it then leave" then we have a problem
Within the Void:: Well I think some have already suggested their views.
new msgt:: and with nadav it was hard to take that language from him
new msgt:: since i was here just as long as he was. he just had the power
#Perfect Pitch:: ya mike - i totally respect that
#Perfect Pitch:: what I'm looking for are multiple voices reviewing someone's behavior before adverse action occurs
new msgt:: I think John C and Meghan could be good admins
new msgt:: i feel that are more confident and they know how things work
new msgt:: but time will tell i'm sure
domino21710:: To be fair, I lurked around the site a lot before posting on it...I didn't see a lot from Nadav...until "the post"
#Perfect Pitch:: and yes, I think John and Meghan will be great at that
#Perfect Pitch:: but I think normal members should weigh in too
Within the Void:: This is just the first of chats to come. I'll run through this chat and bring up all the suggestions people have had. There may be another chat to see what people think would work best
#DelvianOracle:: I just like the idea of sharing the power and responsibility
#DelvianOracle:: this is a lot for one person
JoshuaChayne:: part of nadav's problem probably was his young age and his narrow views on jean and claremont. lol
new msgt:: there was a time where a poster, Sweet Vanilla Child, posts would often "disappear"
domino21710:: I have every confidence they will be. I'm looking forward to more on the boards..
new msgt:: his posts were being deleted
new msgt:: and we weren't supposed to ask any questions as to why
domino21710:: oh, yikes. Really?
new msgt:: yes. it was one of the last big fights
SantoPejo:: someone grab the rope. lol
new msgt:: before this current one
#Perfect Pitch:: indeed...they were deleted in the middle of the night sometimes
JoshuaChayne:: we use to chat with Nadav on ICQ years ago, hes really not a bad guy just young, niave, and rather narrow in thinking sometimes.
new msgt:: and when called out on it. the admin was like "he didn't think anyone noticed
new msgt:: well Sweet Vanilla child noticed. a lot of us noticed
JoshuaChayne:: yeah that was bad.
new msgt:: its like saying your thoughts don't matter
domino21710:: whoa...that's pretty rude. I hadn't seen that before.
new msgt:: so i'll just delete them
JoshuaChayne:: we stood up for sweetvanilla once.
new msgt:: yes we did.
#Perfect Pitch:: you couldn't "see it" -- they were gone
new msgt:: josh, myself, robert, and others did
#Caveman:: what did svc do to get himself deleted?
#DelvianOracle:: me? I don't recall
new msgt:: it was just his personality. he comes off gruff
domino21710:: was it just posting a differing opinion on Jean?
Within the Void:: be himself
new msgt:: snarky
#DelvianOracle:: but I know I've had SVCs back
new msgt:: he's snarky
JoshuaChayne:: Nadav though sweets was rude to a new member.
JoshuaChayne:: thought
new msgt:: but he just posted like he always posts
JoshuaChayne:: once
new msgt:: and still does
#DelvianOracle:: LOL
domino21710:: I guess that's something that develops over time. I do have to admit, I was intimidated when i first checked out the site,
new msgt:: thats just the way he posts
domino21710:: but I'm addicted now...
#Caveman:: outof everyone, that is the one person who did not give me the welcome mat
new msgt:: can't we be allowed individuality when it comes to our posting style?
JoshuaChayne:: Nadav has never socialized well with others, I think its kinda goth/emo
Within the Void::
new msgt:: must we conform to the admin's view of everything?
JoshuaChayne:: he not its
new msgt:: that's not good at all
SantoPejo:: Big Brother is watching...you better conform
domino21710:: Don't feel bad, I'm not sure I got a welcome mat at all.
#Perfect Pitch:: OK - Nadav did his best
Within the Void:: Thats a good question Mike and something should be written into the rules about that
new msgt:: See it was after the Sweet Vanilla incident that we got rules
new msgt:: if everyone recalls
new msgt:: it was during that fight
JoshuaChayne:: admins and mods have to realize that they cannot regulate opinions
#Perfect Pitch:: josh - agreed
new msgt:: we wanted rules to protect us from the admin/mods
Within the Void::
new msgt:: but instead they just used them to go after us more
JoshuaChayne:: they are just suppose to protect people from being victimized, imho.
domino21710:: As long as opinions are posted responsibly...
new msgt:: that's how it seemingly happened
Within the Void:: Is there any other topic?
new msgt:: they even tried to outlaw flirting on the board. if you read the rules
#Perfect Pitch:: well, really josh, if that's a moderaotrs sole purpose
#Perfect Pitch:: they aren't needed
new msgt:: because so many of the guys used to flirt with each other
#Perfect Pitch:: the board does that itself
domino21710:: Ooo..I didn't read that rule.
new msgt:: it seemed so ridiculous
new msgt:: to make rules against that
Within the Void:: So the rules are in need a a revamp
new msgt:: it happened anyhow. JohnC used to flirt with Fenix Rising all the time
new msgt:: that was after the rules
#DelvianOracle:: hahahaha
domino21710:: I flirt with everyone, I'm not picky...
#Caveman:: On the other hand, if you put yourself out there, on a post, do expect at some point to find someone taking a shot a you. Flirting, really?
new msgt:: but i felt the rules were to regulate the flirting with the gay men because usually it became more explicit in language most of the time
#Caveman:: love and war, together eh? lol
#Perfect Pitch:: I would like Meghan's and JOhn's input on banning/suspending....I think the two of them, plus one randomly selected member is enough to make that decision
domino21710:: running into the explicit content on the site...
Within the Void::
domino21710:: Oh...it's a small world.
new msgt:: Lisa is still a mod but she doesn't post. same might go for Lost Goddess
#DelvianOracle:: we get really explicit on AIM
#DelvianOracle:: <blushes>
#Perfect Pitch:: well I'm out
#Perfect Pitch:: good talking to everyone
Within the Void:: Meghan will be here tomorrow unless something changes
new msgt:: Nadav had different opinions about what was explicit and not and i think that was due to his age
#Perfect Pitch:: ciao my friends!
domino21710:: have a great night!
new msgt:: he's amongst the youngest of posters.
new msgt:: he's two years younger than I
#Caveman:: goodnight perfect pitch
Within the Void:: au revoir
#Perfect Pitch left
#DelvianOracle:: Mike, get on AIM soon
new msgt:: ok
domino21710:: I would ask how old he is, but I might get into trouble on that one
#DelvianOracle:: I need some incognito lovin
#DelvianOracle:: hahahaha
#DelvianOracle:: kidding... but i may be on after Bill Maher
Within the Void:: If no one else has anything to add the meeting can be dissolved
#DelvianOracle:: I'll say goodnight and good luck to all
#DelvianOracle:: Bill and hookah call
#DelvianOracle:: :-D
SantoPejo left
Within the Void:: Great
I'll post this in the cafe. Thanks for coming everyone
Within the Void:: here here *slams gavel* this meeting has been called to order
#DelvianOracle:: LOL
#Perfect Pitch:: sweet
#Perfect Pitch:: and so it begins
domino21710:: Anyone who has a guns assumes responsibility
#Perfect Pitch:: Take it away void
Duddy9:: But he ruined the mans shot!
domino21710:: Present and accounted for!
Within the Void:: The first thing on the agenda is JGMB rules
#DelvianOracle:: yeah, we could be political all night
domino21710:: okay...focus, focus...
Within the Void:: I just want to say while the official meeting is in order the rules need to be obeyed\
#DelvianOracle:: hahahaha
#Perfect Pitch:: agreed
#DelvianOracle:: I mean, definitely
Duddy9:: agreed
domino21710:: sure
domino21710:: I mean, yea
Within the Void:: They are located at the top of each board for your convenience
#DelvianOracle:: are we in danger of breaking rules in a chat?
#Caveman:: agreed. if i do leave, which i might, don't mean it for anything excepting really having to leave. good luck void and thanks for organizing this.
Within the Void:: The main rule that I mean is respect, just everyone please respect that not everyone sees the same thing
#Perfect Pitch:: void may I have the floor?
Within the Void:: no you may not
#Perfect Pitch:: fine
Within the Void:: j/king
#Perfect Pitch:: ok
#DelvianOracle:: well, I say we start off by agreeing not to take everything so personally... who would expect that you leaving was for any reason other than having to go?
#Caveman left
Duddy9:: lol
#DelvianOracle:: oh no, he left because he hates me!
Within the Void:: guys lets be serious
Within the Void:: Birr?
#Perfect Pitch:: Ok - I do think now that there are multiple administrators...a lot of anxiety is relieved
#DelvianOracle:: oh alright
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#DelvianOracle:: PEJO!
#Perfect Pitch:: but as far as the rules go
#DelvianOracle:: my loe!
Duddy9:: Hello Santo
domino21710:: okay.
#DelvianOracle:: or love
SantoPejo:: hello everyone
SantoPejo:: LOL
#DelvianOracle:: you know
domino21710:: Hi Santo!
SantoPejo:: Loe, love...its all the same
#Perfect Pitch:: I would like to specify flaming and maybe come up with a new succient definition as a group
#Perfect Pitch:: you know...and can we quantify that
Within the Void:: Is everyone aware of what is considered flaming?
domino21710:: succinct?
#DelvianOracle:: vaguely
Duddy9:: yes
domino21710:: I need clarification, please
#Perfect Pitch:: For example, what Nate was doing earlier I do not believe is flamming...but others did
#Perfect Pitch:: there is clearly a difference in how we understand what is and is not flamming
#DelvianOracle:: well, I wanna clarify that falaming is anything i don't agree with
SantoPejo:: lol
Within the Void:: hem.passagen.se/hggblom2/...index.html
domino21710:: then...what is a happy medium we can reach?
#DelvianOracle:: wow, I'm not winning points for spelling tonight
#DelvianOracle:: and obviously kidding
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domino21710:: DO--lol
domino21710:: welcome back
#Perfect Pitch:: sorry...had to refresh for pop-ups
Within the Void:: Any thoughts on how we can clarify what flaming is?
#Perfect Pitch:: void could you post the link again
Within the Void:: hem.passagen.se/hggblom2/...index.html
Duddy9:: Could we simply add the "j/k" symbol whenever someone is joking.
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SantoPejo:: inflammatory remarks directed at a specific individual or group?
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domino21710:: well...my popup blocker is barring my ability to see your definition..
#DelvianOracle:: hmmmm, but that defeats the fun
domino21710:: welcome in Joshua!
JoshuaChayne:: hello!
#DelvianOracle:: Josh, yay!
SantoPejo:: hey, Josh
#DelvianOracle:: we needed a Thacker
Duddy9:: Hi Josh
#Caveman:: hi josh
Within the Void:: Its towards the bottom of the page under disruptive behavior I believe
Within the Void:: that would be appropriate duddy
domino21710:: But, if we recall...the whole Dayspring incident wasn't borne of joking, it was a question he had...
#DelvianOracle:: oh, for sure
#DelvianOracle:: but was the question a flame?
Within the Void:: Yes, which is why the meeting has been requested.
domino21710:: What is considered inflammatory would be important..
SantoPejo:: I dont think asking your age is inflammatory
Within the Void:: Delvian what do you consider a flame
#DelvianOracle:: well, generally something that seems offensive and done to offend
#DelvianOracle:: but see? too vague
#DelvianOracle:: "offensive" for who? me?
Within the Void:: I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot but we need some feedback
Within the Void:: to you and your character
#Perfect Pitch:: yes - how do we make those with thick skin and those with thinner skin all happy
#DelvianOracle:: yeah, but I'd really love if we could get something concrete, because intent is so hard to establish
domino21710:: His question on how old was the other poster was followed by "it takes a bit of age to be able to analyze it on that level"....
Within the Void:: So do we want to refrain from asking personal questions on the board or is there some other option
domino21710:: I think that's where trouble started..
Within the Void:: so questioning ones intelligence should not be done?
#Perfect Pitch:: Ok - I would agree to that...age is pretty personal. I think directly asking someone's age is inappropriate
domino21710:: Does that sound like a good question to you Void?
#Perfect Pitch:: no - questioning intelligence is essential
#Perfect Pitch:: but questioning age is personal
domino21710:: In the correct way...
Duddy9:: He was being rather condescending
#DelvianOracle:: according to who, though?
#DelvianOracle:: public opinion?
Within the Void:: ok
JoshuaChayne:: I wish we could structure things without being too rule oriented.
Within the Void:: so we need to define who the material is offensive to
domino21710:: Well, if you are asking someone who has written corporate policy before (and you are)....the question about age wasn't the problem..
JoshuaChayne:: As long as people say their opinions without personally attacking another person, things should be fine right?
SantoPejo:: you'd think so
#DelvianOracle:: you'd think so
domino21710:: it was his assumption after the question that was unnecessary and should have been stipulated with an IMO.
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
SantoPejo:: lol @ Nick
#Perfect Pitch:: I mean....Void....certainly people say things (myself included) that are inferior. This should not be reinforced just to make someone feel "good" about their intellect
Within the Void:: Somewhat like offensive material being shown to the public
#DelvianOracle:: well, what burden do we ask of the speaker and what of the listener?
domino21710:: I think it's important to clarify opinion and fact.
#DelvianOracle:: it can't all be one person's responsibility, can it?
Duddy9:: To be open to others views
domino21710:: or rather...opinion versus fact.
Within the Void:: Responsiblity should be shared
#DelvianOracle:: I think so too
#DelvianOracle:: communication works both ways
Within the Void::
domino21710:: Taking the specific example of Dayspring, I would view his sentiment as appropriate had it been phrased as " I THINK it takes a bit of age to be able to analyze.....what do you think?"
#Perfect Pitch:: IMO flamming is often avoidable by simply reiterating someone's viewpoint with empathy....Nick, will you help me demonstrate?
#DelvianOracle:: sure
domino21710:: oooo...demonstration!
#DelvianOracle:: <assumes Vanna pose>
Within the Void:: If someone post something that they say is not meant to offend someone else should the "listner" take that at face value
Duddy9:: no
#DelvianOracle:: "one must have a BA to understand Grant Morrion's work"
Within the Void:: I have a BS
domino21710:: not if posed as an opinion seeking an opinion of another...
Within the Void::
domino21710:: BTW--you two are cracking me up.
#DelvianOracle:: we try hard ;-)
#Perfect Pitch:: "That's interesting. So what I'm hearing is that you believe Morrison's work is not as enjoyable for those without an education?"
domino21710:: To give credit to the whole situation, Dayspring did say he didn't mean any insult to Slick.
Within the Void:: lets not descend into this now unless it pertains to the discussion, focus
#DelvianOracle:: "Yes, completely. I think that there are so many elements that necessitate a background in academia that you need further education to get the most from his work
Duddy9:: That doesn't mean insult isn't caused
domino21710:: However, it's like saying..."Don't be mad, but you're not mature enough to get it"
#DelvianOracle:: or equivalent life experience"
#Perfect Pitch:: "I understand, but how do you account for life experience?"
#Perfect Pitch:: darn
#DelvianOracle:: uh oh
#DelvianOracle:: darn?
Within the Void:: back on topic
Within the Void:: How do you think Meghan and John can improve this
#DelvianOracle:: I think people should ask more clarifying questions before posting angry
domino21710:: that could help...
#DelvianOracle:: because often a mistake is being made in interpretation
JoshuaChayne:: I agree, thats a good suggestion.
domino21710:: very true.
Within the Void::
Duddy9:: I'm sorry guys. I have to go, I'm falling asleep at the computer.
#DelvianOracle:: and once we factor that out, we can get at a real issue... if one exists
domino21710:: Good night Duddy..
Duddy9:: Goodbye
#DelvianOracle:: g'night
Duddy9 left
Within the Void:: I'm just putting the smilee faces next to suggestions
#Perfect Pitch:: "I understand that you highly respect Morrison. What about his run bothered you?"
#Perfect Pitch:: and scene
#Perfect Pitch:: hahaha
#DelvianOracle:: LOL
domino21710:: ha!
domino21710::
SantoPejo:: So...I'm lost
#DelvianOracle:: yeah, we used to do this more often here on the Jean board... disagree vehemently
#DelvianOracle:: now it seems so taboo
domino21710:: But, if I may...I think assumption should be made clearly as that of an opinion...I haven't heard anyone's thoughts on that...
#DelvianOracle:: all I can say to account for it is that relationships have been lost
#Caveman:: can i jump in here. to the folk who have been here awhile, i need to ask a question. Has there been a "crisis" like this, if there is one, on this board before, to require such scrutiny.
domino21710:: Good question.
#DelvianOracle:: yes
#DelvianOracle:: multiple times that I recall
Within the Void:: *nods*
#DelvianOracle:: this one just got huge
#Caveman:: and how were they resolved?
SantoPejo:: drama ensues when...oh, nevermind.
JoshuaChayne:: oh yes we have had many huge disagreements and even flame wars of sorts.
#Perfect Pitch:: well, if one person holds too much power...trouble is always bound to repeat
domino21710:: But how did the situations end up?
#DelvianOracle:: I think the key to past conflict was interpersonal respect
JoshuaChayne:: usually either some people are banned or others leave.
Within the Void:: I don't think I was around for many of them perhaps Josh can answer how they were resolved
Within the Void:: foresight
JoshuaChayne:: they either feel they must leave out of aggrivation or are encouraged to leave by others.
#DelvianOracle:: "old memebers" have, in the past, had a real friendship going on
domino21710:: So, the huge fights usually ended in what precisely did happen with Nadav?
#DelvianOracle:: usually, but there was a pervasive feeling that most people agreed
#DelvianOracle:: not so this time
#Perfect Pitch:: I have to say...something the board is good at is protecting whistle blowers....I've seen that respect multiple times
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#slickboy444:: Hello everybody!
#DelvianOracle:: hey
domino21710:: hey slick
#Perfect Pitch:: hi
#slickboy444:: THis has got to be the most people I've ever seen the chat room at once. lol
#Caveman:: hello back
Within the Void:: I'm not familiar with the term "whistle blowers"
domino21710:: Yeah, can you expound on that Pitch?
#Perfect Pitch:: Sure
#Perfect Pitch:: When one see's an abuse of power, he/she informs the community
#Perfect Pitch:: *sees
#Perfect Pitch:: that's whistleblowing
#slickboy444:: Hey, is anybody going to be at the New York Comic Con this weekend?
Within the Void:: thanks
#Perfect Pitch:: and normally...people are thrown in jail for it in the US
#slickboy444:: Yeah, in a nutshell, that's what it is.
#Perfect Pitch:: this board doesn't try to silence a whistleblowerm, which is def. positive
domino21710:: thank you.
#Perfect Pitch:: for example, even those disagreeing with me starting the nadav thread....they didn't tell me to leave or shut up
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#DelvianOracle:: and I think this is an important idea
#Perfect Pitch:: certainly critisim was there...and that's appropriate
domino21710:: welcome back...I think a response (not specifically to you Pitch) saying why you disagree with someone is perfectly acceptable...
#DelvianOracle:: people seeking change are trying to build a better board
#DelvianOracle:: not trying to "cause trouble"
#Caveman:: sometimes I have noticed, that all of us, despite our "love of Jean", plain plum just rub each other the wrong way, and each of us at one time has gotten a "hate post?" how should this be handled.
#Perfect Pitch:: yes nick, exactly
#slickboy444:: Well it sure felt personal for me.
Within the Void:: Caveman that was the next topic you beat me
domino21710:: great minds...
JoshuaChayne:: people in power have to be questioned and you would think they would expect it.
#Perfect Pitch:: agreed josh
#DelvianOracle:: zing
#slickboy444:: Definitely.
domino21710:: Agreed.
Within the Void:: Any ideas on how the "flame" should be handled
#DelvianOracle:: well, I'd suggest taking time before responding
Within the Void::
#Caveman left
#slickboy444:: Well I'm all for free speech, so I say we take the "freedom to speak" but "responsibility of freedom" road.
#Perfect Pitch:: can moderators close a thread for all but the people arguing?
JoshuaChayne:: unless things get too out of hand, often times in these disagreements people work through the problems themselves.
domino21710:: Someone had brought up the idea before of allowing the posters invovled a chance to rectify the sitation before notifying admin.
#Perfect Pitch:: nevermind...I don't know where I was going with that
#slickboy444:: I belong to other forums were there's cursing, insults, and playful exchanges and nobody takes it overtly seriously.
JoshuaChayne:: sometimes other members can try to mediate or diffuse the situation
domino21710:: I think that's when the flaming can happen too, gosh this is a tough call
#Perfect Pitch:: yes josh, but often they pick sides and cause nothing but ongoing crazy anger
JoshuaChayne:: yeah that sometimes happens too
#slickboy444:: Yeah, as much as we love Jean, there are factions.
#DelvianOracle:: well, there always will be
#DelvianOracle:: human beings group together by likes and dislikes
#slickboy444:: So naturally, you have to expect there to be people flaming one another.
JoshuaChayne:: I remember when visible cliques of sorts started on the jean board. lol
#DelvianOracle:: well, not so much
#DelvianOracle:: the expected flame
#DelvianOracle:: I expect that adults can handle confrontation without resorting to flames
domino21710:: Factions however, shouldn't prevent people from posting to each other, even in disagreeance with a modicum of respect and manners.
#DelvianOracle:: but see? problem! "adults"
Within the Void:: The cussing isn't "allowed" because of the minors issue though it happens responsibly #$@#$%
#slickboy444:: But that's part of what we're here for.
JoshuaChayne:: in the past we have had young people like between 11 and 13 on the board
#Perfect Pitch:: ya...flamming has to occur...and, come on, flamming gets the heart racing and the blood pumping...it's healthy to some extent
#slickboy444:: I don't know. A lot of the 11 and 13 year olds I've met still curse like sailors.
#DelvianOracle:: I think an outright flame is a failure to communicate
domino21710:: Sure, I think a good dose of banter does the body good (and the brain)...
JoshuaChayne:: of course there will be passionate disagreements and sometimes condescending jabs at each other.
#Perfect Pitch:: yes, but why are we raising 11 and 13 year olds to not expect cursing in this world?
#slickboy444:: No, it's an emotional reaction.
#DelvianOracle:: which is a failure to communicate
#slickboy444:: When people don't stop and think, they react harshly.
#DelvianOracle:: my point exactly
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
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JoshuaChayne:: But we don't have to say things like I hope you die and things of that sort.
domino21710:: welcome back.
#Perfect Pitch:: OMG - slick I have a question for you
#slickboy444:: What is it Perfect?
domino21710:: uh-oh
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
#DelvianOracle:: he hasn't had enough to drink to get mean
#DelvianOracle:: LOL
#Perfect Pitch:: If you were to pretend to be Nate....how would you have phrased his question about Morrison's work?
#DelvianOracle:: (not that he would)
domino21710:: That shiraz can pack a whollup.
#Perfect Pitch:: literally type the question
Within the Void:: Its not a matter of why the young ones are not cussing but having respect for the parents who don't want their child hearing that
#slickboy444:: What questions was that?
SantoPejo:: I have. lol
domino21710:: THE question...that started the whole bruhahaha
#slickboy444:: Kids cuss. Kids cuss A LOT. This I know.
domino21710:: No...the question Nate asked you in the Bashing Morisson thread.
#slickboy444:: Well I would have asked it in the form of, "Why do you think this way? Why do you think Morrison was such a hack?"
JoshuaChayne:: It seems like the language filter may have already been taken off.
#slickboy444:: Not, "I don't think you see what Morrison was trying to do."
#slickboy444:: And I took that as a personal attack on my intelligence.
#Perfect Pitch:: OK
#Perfect Pitch:: that's fair
Within the Void:: what should be done about handling flames
#Perfect Pitch:: but do you see how "Why do you think Morrison was such a hack" is equally unfair
#Perfect Pitch:: ???
#slickboy444:: And if he was standing right in front of me physically, I probably would have reacted with a 'screw yo.'
#slickboy444:: That's my opinion.
Within the Void:: unacceptable
domino21710:: Which backs up my earlier statement
Within the Void:: Respect others please even if they are not present
#slickboy444:: You're right, that's definitely a given.
Within the Void:: Constructive thoughts
#slickboy444:: But we're only human. Don't forget that.
#Perfect Pitch:: so really, we need you, slick, to tell us (as your community) in that instance what was appropriate
#Perfect Pitch:: but we also must strive to be fair in the discourse
#Perfect Pitch:: i know we're only human
#DelvianOracle:: but humanity doesn't mean "assume overly emotional repsonse at outset"
domino21710:: We're only human is a cop out excuse....is there anyone posting who isn't human?
#DelvianOracle:: there has to be conversational rights and responsibilities
#slickboy444:: But it also means that you can't expect the best from humans all the time.
#Perfect Pitch:: sure
#slickboy444:: I curse sometimes and I'm sure a lot of you curse too.
#DelvianOracle:: a lot
#slickboy444:: it's a matter of context.
#Perfect Pitch:: very much
#DelvianOracle:: but not in front of 11 year olds
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
#slickboy444:: Obvously none of you have met some of my cousins. lol
#Perfect Pitch:: well, again, I think I just disagree with that about 11 year olds...I think children using curse words is fine
#slickboy444:: But that's just me.
#Perfect Pitch:: it's part of language...and even words we dislike have meaning
#slickboy444:: Yeah, kids are going to express themselves. No way around it.
#Perfect Pitch:: but that's not important
domino21710:: I think if we want to add an adult only section, then we can start using selective language.
#slickboy444:: It's a matter of how it's constructed.
Within the Void::
#slickboy444:: Yeah, i know I've written fics with adult material that I want to post, but am afraid of censors.
JoshuaChayne:: right now the filters aren't on, in the shades of grey forum.
JoshuaChayne:: I think they may be on in the astral plane though.
#Perfect Pitch:: Well, void, I would suggest moving to the next agenda item
domino21710:: I'm a liberal and I don't care for censorship, but I think some fics need to have warnings on them if necessary...
#slickboy444:: And I put fair warnings on all my fics.
JoshuaChayne:: language doesn't offend me at all
domino21710:: and cursing should be avoided in the general discussion threads.
#slickboy444:: Including the NC-17 fics I've written.
JoshuaChayne:: people just shouldn't say things like @#%$ you, bitch. lol
Within the Void:: ok
#Perfect Pitch:: could you post what it is???
Within the Void:: moving on, I'll let Meghan and John know about the language issue/nonissue.
#slickboy444:: Yeah, we don't need to create more enemies.
domino21710:: Although almost everyone I know curses, sometimes, really, it just isn't necessary and really diminishes the purposes of the forum.
#Perfect Pitch:: thanks void!
Within the Void:: Next lets talk about Moderators
#Perfect Pitch:: I think some major imporvement has already occured here
#Perfect Pitch:: and I must say, I am happy about the multiple mods
#slickboy444:: Hey, whatever works.
#Perfect Pitch:: john and meghan have demonstrate impartial, competent and rationale decision making to me
JoshuaChayne:: we have always had multiple moderators
#DelvianOracle:: true
#DelvianOracle:: but visible?
Within the Void:: Meghan and I chatted and electing moderators would not be fair as people could just elect their faction into office. Voter turn out at the boards is very low
JoshuaChayne:: john and meghan are administrators now
#Perfect Pitch:: well, yes, but not all operated with the same authoritty
#DelvianOracle:: sorry, was away preparing the hookah
JoshuaChayne:: I don't think we have had multiple administrators before
#slickboy444:: Well it's a big forum.
#DelvianOracle:: exactly
#DelvianOracle:: and bigger all the time
#slickboy444:: It's got to be one of the biggest comic forums I know of.
#Perfect Pitch:: as far as the actual practice of moderaiton goes...is there anything that needs to change???
#slickboy444:: Shows how many people love Jean. That or they just love the artwork.
#slickboy444:: Not that I can think of Perfect.
#DelvianOracle:: I think Jean has an amazing following
#Perfect Pitch:: At this time, I think moderation is going rather well
#slickboy444:: Yeah, I haven't seen any problems.
Within the Void:: I want to know how anyone can be sure things are actually running as smooth and working properly
#Perfect Pitch:: I do have some things to say on punishments...but that is a later topic
#slickboy444:: Well, I have to go now, but before I leave, there's something I've always wanted to do...
#slickboy444:: SNOOCH TO THE NOOCH! MALL RATS RULE! STAN LEE IS GOD!
Within the Void:: Meghan and John have not run across any heated debates that might have caused controversy yet
#slickboy444:: Sorry, but I just had to do it. lol
#slickboy444 left
#DelvianOracle:: wow, awesome
domino21710:: !!!
#Perfect Pitch:: but, they have moderated heated debates before....and have demonstrated impartiality
#Perfect Pitch:: *impartial behavior
#DelvianOracle:: I don't think the key is ever not having an opinion on the matter of controversy
#DelvianOracle:: the key is not letting it control your moderation
#Perfect Pitch:: yep
Within the Void:: I just wanted to make sure there were reasons and not just "Nadavs gone" so everything is peachy
#DelvianOracle:: we all struggle with this daily
domino21710:: I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise, I think our new administrator's will fare well.
new msgt joined
#DelvianOracle:: Mike
#DelvianOracle:: :-D
domino21710:: Hey msgt.
Within the Void:: So everyone is ok with the moderation and how many mods we have
#Perfect Pitch:: in fact, if you as a moderator have an opinion at all....you should recuse yourself from moderating the debate
new msgt:: Howdy
#Caveman:: hello msgt
#Perfect Pitch:: I am
domino21710:: I'm sorry, I stepped away from the computer. How many mods do we have?
#Perfect Pitch:: I am void
#DelvianOracle:: so far, so good
Within the Void:: I'm not a moderator
new msgt:: I know I've missed al ot of the conversation
domino21710:: Or is administrator and moderator the same thing..
#DelvianOracle:: well, mods are in flux if John and Meg are admins now
domino21710:: pardon me for my ignorance..
JoshuaChayne:: its not really the same thing
#Perfect Pitch:: one day at a time void....VOID 2010!!!
new msgt:: but I feel too much moderation can be a bad things sometimes
new msgt:: usually situations get heated but they calm down eventualy
JoshuaChayne:: admins give mods their status. admins can delete the whole board if they want, mods can't.
new msgt:: that or board members help diffuse situations
new msgt:: i think the board is very self correcting
domino21710:: I see, thank you for explaining..
#DelvianOracle:: usually
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
#Perfect Pitch:: usualy
#Caveman:: haven't been around long enough to make an opinion, but have nothing but positive things to say about them especially by their tone of message, very welcoming
#Perfect Pitch:: usually
#Caveman:: but can a board become a lynch mob?
#Perfect Pitch:: I think, Void, that we could move on to the next topic if the community is ready?
Within the Void:: ok if
new msgt:: I do think mods can make situations worse depending on how they approach situations
Within the Void:: lol everyones just reading my mind tonight
#DelvianOracle:: as can all "enforcers"
new msgt:: agreed
domino21710:: Msgt...I think you've hit the nail on the head for almost any altercation.
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
new msgt:: joshuachayne, used to be a mod
new msgt:: back when sequoia ran the board
#DelvianOracle:: did he? ;-)
#Perfect Pitch:: josh? what happened???
Within the Void:: Next are there any other topics that anyone feels need to be discussed
#Perfect Pitch:: punishments
Within the Void:: Ok
new msgt:: before she left josh requested to not be a mod anymore
JoshuaChayne:: sequoia did not like how I handeled a situation and then I decided not to be a mod anymore. hehe
new msgt:: after a big fight
#Perfect Pitch:: I think banning should be a commuity decision...not a sole moderator decision
#DelvianOracle:: uh oh
new msgt:: yeah basically she didn't want him modding anymore lol
Within the Void::
new msgt:: I don't even like the idea of banning. esp. when it's long time members
#DelvianOracle:: I think there needs to be a check, for sure
new msgt:: or even original members
#DelvianOracle:: checks and balances
domino21710:: yikes...that's a call I'm not sure I would like to make at all..
new msgt:: and it shouldn't be done so lightly that it has been in the past
Within the Void:: oh for those just stepping in the smilees are for suggestions. Meghan will be reading this after we are done hear
Within the Void:: here
new msgt:: Meghan will be reading what?
#DelvianOracle:: a transcript
#Perfect Pitch:: there could be a committee on banning that is not elected, just randomly selected from those with greater than 1000 posts
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
new msgt:: that
JoshuaChayne:: I think if a ban has to be done (after someone steps way over the line) there should be some second chances for them to return later if they behave
new msgt:: s good.
new msgt:: at least we know Meghan is rational.
new msgt:: that is a plus for the board.
Within the Void:: The meeting
domino21710:: I think suspension is a much better alternative to banning.
#DelvianOracle:: me too
Within the Void:: She could not be here today, so I will be posting the meeting later tonight
JoshuaChayne:: I like that idea too.
new msgt:: banning is extreme and former admins seem to be ban happy
new msgt:: save for johnH
#Perfect Pitch:: suspensions are fine....banning is not like the death penalty though
new msgt:: who would tell you that he was more "liberal" admin
Within the Void:: I'll edit out things that occur before and after
#DelvianOracle:: indeed not
new msgt:: he didn't try to control people as much as later admins
#DelvianOracle:: some people bounce back from it like veritable phoenixes
#DelvianOracle:: ;-)
domino21710:: It's temporary, it's like being grounded..without of course, having to stick to your room..
new msgt:: See i think what we have is a community
JoshuaChayne:: thomas and justin are the mains ones that were banned and they were original members.
#DelvianOracle:: really?
new msgt:: i know it feels that way for us that have been here for years and years
#Perfect Pitch:: well void, what can we do as a community about having more voices involved in the suspension/banning process????
new msgt:: so when someone comes in and is all "I own the place, this is my rules, if you don't like it then leave" then we have a problem
Within the Void:: Well I think some have already suggested their views.
new msgt:: and with nadav it was hard to take that language from him
new msgt:: since i was here just as long as he was. he just had the power
#Perfect Pitch:: ya mike - i totally respect that
#Perfect Pitch:: what I'm looking for are multiple voices reviewing someone's behavior before adverse action occurs
new msgt:: I think John C and Meghan could be good admins
new msgt:: i feel that are more confident and they know how things work
new msgt:: but time will tell i'm sure
domino21710:: To be fair, I lurked around the site a lot before posting on it...I didn't see a lot from Nadav...until "the post"
#Perfect Pitch:: and yes, I think John and Meghan will be great at that
#Perfect Pitch:: but I think normal members should weigh in too
Within the Void:: This is just the first of chats to come. I'll run through this chat and bring up all the suggestions people have had. There may be another chat to see what people think would work best
#DelvianOracle:: I just like the idea of sharing the power and responsibility
#DelvianOracle:: this is a lot for one person
JoshuaChayne:: part of nadav's problem probably was his young age and his narrow views on jean and claremont. lol
new msgt:: there was a time where a poster, Sweet Vanilla Child, posts would often "disappear"
domino21710:: I have every confidence they will be. I'm looking forward to more on the boards..
new msgt:: his posts were being deleted
new msgt:: and we weren't supposed to ask any questions as to why
domino21710:: oh, yikes. Really?
new msgt:: yes. it was one of the last big fights
SantoPejo:: someone grab the rope. lol
new msgt:: before this current one
#Perfect Pitch:: indeed...they were deleted in the middle of the night sometimes
JoshuaChayne:: we use to chat with Nadav on ICQ years ago, hes really not a bad guy just young, niave, and rather narrow in thinking sometimes.
new msgt:: and when called out on it. the admin was like "he didn't think anyone noticed
new msgt:: well Sweet Vanilla child noticed. a lot of us noticed
JoshuaChayne:: yeah that was bad.
new msgt:: its like saying your thoughts don't matter
domino21710:: whoa...that's pretty rude. I hadn't seen that before.
new msgt:: so i'll just delete them
JoshuaChayne:: we stood up for sweetvanilla once.
new msgt:: yes we did.
#Perfect Pitch:: you couldn't "see it" -- they were gone
new msgt:: josh, myself, robert, and others did
#Caveman:: what did svc do to get himself deleted?
#DelvianOracle:: me? I don't recall
new msgt:: it was just his personality. he comes off gruff
domino21710:: was it just posting a differing opinion on Jean?
Within the Void:: be himself
new msgt:: snarky
#DelvianOracle:: but I know I've had SVCs back
new msgt:: he's snarky
JoshuaChayne:: Nadav though sweets was rude to a new member.
JoshuaChayne:: thought
new msgt:: but he just posted like he always posts
JoshuaChayne:: once
new msgt:: and still does
#DelvianOracle:: LOL
domino21710:: I guess that's something that develops over time. I do have to admit, I was intimidated when i first checked out the site,
new msgt:: thats just the way he posts
domino21710:: but I'm addicted now...
#Caveman:: outof everyone, that is the one person who did not give me the welcome mat
new msgt:: can't we be allowed individuality when it comes to our posting style?
JoshuaChayne:: Nadav has never socialized well with others, I think its kinda goth/emo
Within the Void::
new msgt:: must we conform to the admin's view of everything?
JoshuaChayne:: he not its
new msgt:: that's not good at all
SantoPejo:: Big Brother is watching...you better conform
domino21710:: Don't feel bad, I'm not sure I got a welcome mat at all.
#Perfect Pitch:: OK - Nadav did his best
Within the Void:: Thats a good question Mike and something should be written into the rules about that
new msgt:: See it was after the Sweet Vanilla incident that we got rules
new msgt:: if everyone recalls
new msgt:: it was during that fight
JoshuaChayne:: admins and mods have to realize that they cannot regulate opinions
#Perfect Pitch:: josh - agreed
new msgt:: we wanted rules to protect us from the admin/mods
Within the Void::
new msgt:: but instead they just used them to go after us more
JoshuaChayne:: they are just suppose to protect people from being victimized, imho.
domino21710:: As long as opinions are posted responsibly...
new msgt:: that's how it seemingly happened
Within the Void:: Is there any other topic?
new msgt:: they even tried to outlaw flirting on the board. if you read the rules
#Perfect Pitch:: well, really josh, if that's a moderaotrs sole purpose
#Perfect Pitch:: they aren't needed
new msgt:: because so many of the guys used to flirt with each other
#Perfect Pitch:: the board does that itself
domino21710:: Ooo..I didn't read that rule.
new msgt:: it seemed so ridiculous
new msgt:: to make rules against that
Within the Void:: So the rules are in need a a revamp
new msgt:: it happened anyhow. JohnC used to flirt with Fenix Rising all the time
new msgt:: that was after the rules
#DelvianOracle:: hahahaha
domino21710:: I flirt with everyone, I'm not picky...
#Caveman:: On the other hand, if you put yourself out there, on a post, do expect at some point to find someone taking a shot a you. Flirting, really?
new msgt:: but i felt the rules were to regulate the flirting with the gay men because usually it became more explicit in language most of the time
#Caveman:: love and war, together eh? lol
#Perfect Pitch:: I would like Meghan's and JOhn's input on banning/suspending....I think the two of them, plus one randomly selected member is enough to make that decision
domino21710:: running into the explicit content on the site...
Within the Void::
domino21710:: Oh...it's a small world.
new msgt:: Lisa is still a mod but she doesn't post. same might go for Lost Goddess
#DelvianOracle:: we get really explicit on AIM
#DelvianOracle:: <blushes>
#Perfect Pitch:: well I'm out
#Perfect Pitch:: good talking to everyone
Within the Void:: Meghan will be here tomorrow unless something changes
new msgt:: Nadav had different opinions about what was explicit and not and i think that was due to his age
#Perfect Pitch:: ciao my friends!
domino21710:: have a great night!
new msgt:: he's amongst the youngest of posters.
new msgt:: he's two years younger than I
#Caveman:: goodnight perfect pitch
Within the Void:: au revoir
#Perfect Pitch left
#DelvianOracle:: Mike, get on AIM soon
new msgt:: ok
domino21710:: I would ask how old he is, but I might get into trouble on that one
#DelvianOracle:: I need some incognito lovin
#DelvianOracle:: hahahaha
#DelvianOracle:: kidding... but i may be on after Bill Maher
Within the Void:: If no one else has anything to add the meeting can be dissolved
#DelvianOracle:: I'll say goodnight and good luck to all
#DelvianOracle:: Bill and hookah call
#DelvianOracle:: :-D
SantoPejo left
Within the Void:: Great
Void

"On a day like today
I looked at you and I
Saw something in the way
You stared into the sky
I looked at you and I
Saw something in the way
You stared into the sky

But I saw you were sick
And tired of my wrong turns
If you only knew the way I feel
I'd really love to tell you"
And tired of my wrong turns
If you only knew the way I feel
I'd really love to tell you"
Keane
